Official Luthiers Forum!

Man that must have hurt!!! Ouch!!! We have a belt sander that I want to wear an athletic cup when ever I use it....

I kind of think that the Luthier look may be what you have and what Terry suggested. Anyway my barber now gives me a lack-of-quantity discount so maybe the long hair thing is not for me but the beard sounds interesting. Last week the neighbor's kid told me that you could put two of my heads together and have someone's butt....

But the beard might catch on fire as we endless toil with sharp chisel by candle light..... This is complicated!

Luthier Look, Duck Dynasty member, or just a bearded fat guy with long hair. You make the call.

Wasn't going specifically for a particular "Luthier Look", but I find it amusing that more than a few people correlate the two.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

Agreed.

I'm not against him selling molds and spreaders to people who feel they need them, BTW.

Not so sure why it's horrible to think his post might bump his sales a little. That would be good for him.

I guess haters gotta hate.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

Once, where I worked, a new kid tried to be a smart ass. He picked up the drill with the string winder and pretended he was going to shoot himself in the head. His long hair kindly got wrapped up right quick and he pulled a loonie (Canadian metal dollar, slightly smaller than yours) sized patch of hair completely out of his scalp. For many moons did he bear the mark of idiocy.

How important is the squareness of the neck block? Seems to me, if it wiggles one way or the other, the angle will be compensated for in the neck heel. Are we talking square as in right angle to centerline, or square to bench top?

What really matters is that the neck block doesn't inadvertently tilt in the pitch sense, which would change the slope of the upper bout and hence the projection of a straight edge on the upper bout over the saddle position, which sets the string height above the top when the neck shaft is coplanar with the upper bout.

"Keeping it square" is just a shorthand way around the mouthful above. Using a screw through the mould is one way of achieving that. With injudicious use of a fore and aft spreader it is possible to distort the mould "out of square" and put a pitch error on the neck block which then requires a bunch of compensatory work later to get the neck coplanar with the upper bout with the correct projection over the saddle position.

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Trevor Gore, Luthier. Australian hand made acoustic guitars, classical guitars; custom guitar design and build; guitar design instruction.

http://www.goreguitars.com.au

I agree that written word and spoken are often different . We don't hear a vocal infliction in a typed post. As far as I am concerned we move on and no hard feelings.

As I stated before , the more a person wants to insist his way is the only way avoid them. There are many techniques but many of my observations and processes come from my experience as an engineer and tool maker. As Hesh also points out , to control a neck block accurately it needs to be in a fixed position. If you free build , you may have a way of doing this and I am sure it is not a bad thing to share.

Information , is always good , even if it meant that , that isn't the way I would do it. We can all agree to disagree without being disagreeable.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Some of the things I have learned is that its a good idea not to take anything too personally on these forums, and rather take everything you read with a grain of salt (a good idea most places). You also get used to seeking out the posts of some, and avoiding others, it saves a lot of time and energy.

To add to John's list:

Practice makes perfect
Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted

Next!

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

The importance of the neck block position, plane, angle etc. is one of the fundamental concepts that is highlighted and stressed in the KMG assembly manual which has been on line for about ten years now. http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/KM ... embly.html You can see in the photos and dialog our recommended procedure for keeping the block in place during the glue up operation. The neck block is actually fastened to the mold. Also we recommend pinning the sides to the block/s http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/rim.html Getting the rim all squared up will eliminate the chance of many different alignment problems that can occur down the road.

Many of the factories including Martin and Taylor route the mortise after the rim is assembled. I believe there are definite advantage to that methodology, but of course special fixturing is required.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Good advice John, everyone.

I have learned to gig up as many of the processes as possible. It not only reduces the mundane but ensures repeatable consistence results. There are always enough things to do by hand. Example carving the neck, inlay etc.

I build both ways, form and free style and enjoy both when time permits.

I do however, need a clean well light shop and as my eyes grow older this has become even more of a need to both enjoy the build and to stay safe. The new daylight LED’s though expensive are well worth the investment.

As for growing a ponis. My wife, the better half, says no. Safety first I guess.

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Michael Lloyd

“I was born to ignorance, yes, and lesser poverties ...
I was born to privilege that I did not see ... I didn’t know it, but my way was paved” – John Gorka

I took the Charles Fox course back in 2004 so I've always built with his style of adjustable molds and with an accurate centerline and frequent checking of alignment I have been able to make the system work quite well. It took some experience and a closed fixed mold probably would have had a shorter learning curve. I do use one for my archtops. The advantages of the adjustable mold have made me stick with it for flattops.

The exception? Cutaways! The few cutaway flattops I've built were a bear as far as keeping the headblock stable with the Fox mold, especially in horizontal rotation. Laurent Brondel mentioned screwing the headblock to the mold a while back on this forum and of course John reinforced it in this thread. There is no doubt I will do that on the next cutaway flat top I build.

Hats off to the free form builders that make it work, that takes a lot of skill and experience. I think John Greven builds that way to a large degree.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

I like that one. I love when I hear someone say, "I like the way you disagree with me"!

As a solid body hobby builder, I've learned not too sweat the small stuff.
If I dork with a small flaw, the flaw becomes larger. If I over think something, it is no longer is fun.
I never reach perfection, but I think about how to avoid the flaws on the next build.

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wah
Wah-wah-wah-wah
Wah

Dude, I wish I had your hair. You rock!
You don't look like the whispering type to me.

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wah
Wah-wah-wah-wah
Wah

Off the top of my head, a couple of things come to mind.
1) I have learned to set myself apart from most builders that go the Martin/Gibson route. It's taken years to figure out such things as laminate X bracing, ladder bracing, high arched tops and backs, quite different box shapes from the norm, and learning to build vintage instruments. I have after 20+ years of mandolins and varnish, learned lacquer all over again and developed a system of application to guitars that yields a vintage looking finish. I've learned a system of making vintage purfling. Early on, I figured just building another dread-not for hanging on a wall full of dread-nots wasn't my idea of standing out in the crowd or a fun time.
2) Probably the most important thing I have learned through mostly building mandolins, but have applied it to guitars as well, is that the tone is in the WOOD. It is not on the shavings on the floor. Thinly, lightly built instruments sound, well, thin. Oh, they have a delicate, resonant sound and usually are loud, but largely are built with instant gratification in mind. They also improve little.
The last thing you could say about my instruments is that they are built for instant gratification. It usually takes at the very least, a couple of years before they start to sound VG. Many builders start from too thin and work toward thick. I went the opposite way and started with thicker instruments and worked them a bit thinner, but not as thin as most. By building on the slightly thicker side, you get an end result that just keeps on getting better, even 10-15 years down the road. The finest compliment I've ever had about my mandolins came from a "good ole boy" that ripped through a few bluegrass tunes, stopped and remarked, "That's FAT!" And that's what I go for...fat, strong tone.

From the front, I have massive hair.

From the back....

Kinda getting a little thin.

I only whisper to Guitars. And my wife. And my two cute little boys. And my golden Doggies.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

I just wish that I had the opportunity to have hair like that! Seems like the only fertile follicles that I have left are in my nostrils and ears.

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

Hesh has a good point as to what style you want to build. I am a traditionalist and love doing it that way. Still there are more ways than one to skin a cat and more than one to make a guitar. I do believe that you have to start somewhere. I did start with a martin kit , went the Antes print route did change things a bit here and there but in all honesty I got some training , from CF Martin and David Nichols. That little bit did more to help me become a better builder. I am sure the class took off 3 or 4 years of learning off mistakes.
That doesn't me that you can't learn from experience but if sure did help me. Things that I didn't even think about. My tool making and engineering experience helped but the fact is , this is the epitome of wood joinery. It is an amazing journey. Start at the beginning , you need a base line. Compare things as you build. Try not to make too many changes from one guitar to another and you can soon learn the cause and effect relationships of the braces , woods etc.
There is also a big difference between a hobby and a business , I have to build what customers want to buy , and for me that is the niche of the 37 style martin guitars. Still every once in a while I will do something non Martin just for fun. Its Saturday enjoy the day and if you are in the shop , be safe. Keep pinkies out of the sharp stuff

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

How did this turn into a hair thread?

I can't recall ever seeing much about the an alternate assembly process for making a cutaway guitar. Again, I somewhat agree with JH, the most important and perhaps the most challenging aspect of the build is keeping all the components on center and on plane -- especially the neck block. but I do not like the idea of crushing the sides into the mold, that requirement is like necessary because of poor bending results which should be addressed, shop or purchased.
Here's some photo's of my special fixtures -- note the neck block locators, the hinged mold to allow easy clamping and the alignment tool to use prior to gluing on the sound-board. I am sure this will raise a few questions and get those creative juices going. And -- yes you need a work-board, to me the handiest guitar fixture in the shop! The strategy is applicable to traditional and adjustable molds. Also, with a profile cut mold standard clamps can be used to stabilize the rim in the mold.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Stability's not so hard. I just glue the block down to the soundboard exactly where it needs to be exactly square to the center line. Then I screw it to this fixture that that also holds the soundboard down onto the workboard after the glue is dry. Once it's dry, the block is going nowhere, whether you are building a cutaway or not.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

I guess a bit off topic here -- do you simply disregard the upper bout slope requirement?
http://kennethmichaelguitars.com/neckangle.html
The neck block and the rim need to machined/sanded

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Actually I do ignore that as it does not pertain to my build method.

This actually ties in to what I was saying earlier about having a complete system thought out ahead of time because the excerpt you linked to pertains to really one specific style of building, and there are other ways of accomplishing the same thing. Your "requirement" is not REALLY a requirement, nor is the 89/91 degree relationship a requirement.

But first let's talk a little about stability. As a thought experiment, imagine the neck and end blocks glued to the ribs and released from the mold. Pretty flimsy and flexible, which is why it has has to be clamped and screwed down, and getting the block exactly perpendicular to the center line of the top requires so much concentration, although with repetition I'm sure it becomes second nature.

Gluing the block directly to the soundboard first takes that whole problem out of the equation, since it's glued into place exactly where needed and doesn't move. It actually serves as the anchor point when gluing down the sides, which are bent exactly to the right shape and clamped exactly in place on the soundboard as well.

As far as sanding the ribs/neck block, my neck block is glued down 90 degrees square to the neck, but since I arch my upper transverse brace, the shoulders are tipped and the neck block is orthogonal to the soundboard in a resulting 1.5 degree neck angle so that the strings are the correct height above the soundboard at the saddle. The ribs are just glued down to the sides after the kerfing (kerfed lining to the term freaks) is glued to the sides. I sand the ribs on a huge sanding board before gluing them to the soundboard. So MY neck angle relationship is 90/90, not 89/91, or 88/92, or whatever.

So the result is a neck block/neck assembly that is square (no angle transferring necessary), a 1.5 degree neck angle giving me the correct height above the bridge, and a fret plane that is straight from the nut to the fretboard end with no falloff.

So I do this without having to sand/machine the neck block and rims all at once to fit the soundboard. I can do this all day and get consistent results.

Here's some more pictures

The square neck:


A sideview, if you look you can see the shoulders tipping back:


The height above the soundboard:


And a view down the side of the neck so you can see that it is straight from the nut to the fretboard end with no falloff, this one might be hard to see:

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Old growth, shmold growth!

Hey John,

I had the opportunity to tour David Nichol's shop last summer with my grandfather. I was born in Cornwall, just a quick hop across the international bridge and my grandfather knew some of David's family. I was amazed by his wealth of knowledge and his generosity with his time (and I suppose his jaw dropping tonewood stash). I would definitely benefit from some training from a guy like him. Alas there was not enough time. I did get to help him with a neck reset on D 28 and had enough time to absorb a few of his nuggets of wisdom over lunch at the Chinese food joint. There was lots of cool stuff happening in the Custom Pearl Inlay shop.

Come to think of it, I believe I saw a couple of your molds and spreaders in there

So you get the bridge height clearance made by a 1.5 degree +/- slope ( to what?) under the finger board extension by raising the center of the shoulder brace as illustrated and referenced in the gray area section of the article. It does seem like your neck block would have to be tipped inboard on the back side to keep the 180 degree relationship. ( a math thing) Your finger board plane is a straight line - right? Perhaps a line drawing for my feeble mind would help? I do like the idea of different approaches.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/